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Author Topic:   JSAP Shotgun
Pat _Rogers
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posted 04-17-2002 09:02     Click Here to See the Profile for Pat _Rogers   Click Here to Email Pat _Rogers     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The new JSAP shotgun has been issued to the Marine Corps- the gas operated M1014.
It is supposed to replace the aging 870's and the few 590's and 1300 floating around, but their is not a lot of joy in mudville.

The good news is that the gun has a tight choke, and can deliver pellets downrange in a smaller pattern then was possible.
It has acceptable ghost ring sights.
It has a MilStd 1913 rail (we have been using an Aimpoint M2 with excellent results.
They wisley put a collabibile stock on it.

The bad news is that the LOP with the stock extended is around 14.5" . The fact that many designers and project managers/ officers live in a vacuum. Marines come in all sizes, and to have a stock that fits primarily those who wear 2XL shirts with 36" sleeves is stupid.
Of course it would have been easy to make the stock adjustable, as with the M4A1 (though it took Colt about 25years to figure that out.
The collapsibile stock was a requirement to satisfy those whose job it was to move in confined spaces. Too bad they didn't figure out that there could have been adjustments for LOP included too.
Along with the confined space thing, why the looong bbl? 14.5-16" would have made an easier handling gun, albeit with a smaller mag capacity.
Reports are that some shooters have had the stock collapse while shooting. I haven't seen this, but can undertsand it.
There are also reports of it not cycling with certain types of buckshot, which, considering the heritage, is not a suprise.

There are very few shotguns in the Marine Corps. They are used only for certain sentry functions (ammunition supply points, gate guards and such) and in the proximity of certain weapons.
Force Reconnaissance uses them only for breaching, and the 1014 is singularly unsuitable for that.
The hope is that Force can reclaim some of the 970's that were carried a lot (but never fired) from FSSG, and convert them into Breaching Tools, and dump there old and very worn out guns.

As a limited use weapon, it is, in the overall scheme of things, insignificant. It is also proof positive that the acquisition process is broke (Hey Vinnie, so how are the *&%%$simrads doing?)

We'll see.

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Tuukka
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posted 04-17-2002 12:49     Click Here to See the Profile for Tuukka   Click Here to Email Tuukka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pat, having shot and handled the M1014 for quite some time now, would it be possible for the USMC armorers to make stops in the stock tube for various positions.

We looked at this possibility when the M1014s arrived the first time, since it would benefit from added "notches" in the stock tube.

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Pat _Rogers
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posted 04-17-2002 14:31     Click Here to See the Profile for Pat _Rogers   Click Here to Email Pat _Rogers     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tukka- the Marine Corps is a bureaucracy, and mods to weapons does not officially happen.
Also- to agree to the mod would mean that the Project Officer made a mistake, and that would not be admitted.

As i said, shotguns are pretty much a non issue anyway, so it is not a big thing- except that is shows the acquisition process for what it really is (or isn't).

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Tuukka
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posted 04-17-2002 16:28     Click Here to See the Profile for Tuukka   Click Here to Email Tuukka     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, i was sort of expecting that, but that would fix the LOP issue though.

Hopefully the M1014 will function in the use the USMC needs/has for it.

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murphquake
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posted 04-17-2002 21:49     Click Here to See the Profile for murphquake   Click Here to Email murphquake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pat,
I believe I mentioned it before, but the M1014 is supposed to be a system and there are supposedly other stock and barrel configs available. Maybe someone needs to contact HK/Benelli about it. HTH, wish i could get one, they're damn purty =-D
-bill

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Pat _Rogers
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posted 04-17-2002 22:00     Click Here to See the Profile for Pat _Rogers   Click Here to Email Pat _Rogers     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bill,
That may be true as a commercial offering, but we have not seen any info relative to this at the issue level.
I'll check on that next week.

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YeeDude
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posted 04-17-2002 22:35     Click Here to See the Profile for YeeDude   Click Here to Email YeeDude     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Found these pictures on Benelli USA's website; described as the shotgun's "adjustable stock":



Note the machined notches in the recoil spring tube; could be for an intermediate position?

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murphquake
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posted 04-18-2002 16:07     Click Here to See the Profile for murphquake   Click Here to Email murphquake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pat,
Did a little searching and found a pic of the other stock options. The Benelli USA website ( http://www.benelliusa.com/ ) says there are 2 barrels and 3 stocks available. http://club.guns.ru/eng/hkm4.html and http://www.moreammo.com/xm1014.html mention a 14 inch bbl, and the second has a pic with all 3 stocks. HTH!
-bill

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Pat _Rogers
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posted 04-18-2002 16:16     Click Here to See the Profile for Pat _Rogers   Click Here to Email Pat _Rogers     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by murphquake:
Pat,
Did a little searching and found a pic of the other stock options. The Benelli USA website ( http://www.benelliusa.com/ ) says there are 2 barrels and 3 stocks available. http://club.guns.ru/eng/hkm4.html and http://www.moreammo.com/xm1014.html mention a 14 inch bbl, and the second has a pic with all 3 stocks. HTH!
-bill

Like i said- that is for the non military market. It may be available, but that is not what SYSCOM gave us.

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murphquake
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posted 04-23-2002 14:25     Click Here to See the Profile for murphquake   Click Here to Email murphquake     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pat,
Consider it whining ammo =-) (boohoo! why dont we have this? waaah!) I know I saw a pic of the 14" BBL somewhere about a year ago, if i come across it again i'll post a link. Are you telling me that those SYSCOM guys didn't hook you up even though they knew you know me... now they're gonna get it =-D LOL! BTW is there any capacity for rails for the handguards on them? I've never seen it mentioned, but it would make sense (there I go doing trying that sense thing again!)
-bill

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FmrCQB
Novice
posted 05-03-2002 08:29     Click Here to See the Profile for FmrCQB     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The 870's going away?? That's not good news,I thought they were a solid weapon.I used them in Haiti.

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SEA SOLDIER
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posted 05-03-2002 13:08     Click Here to See the Profile for SEA SOLDIER   Click Here to Email SEA SOLDIER     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The 870 will never die. It can't be replaced. Nothing out there right now as solid or reliable.

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Tabasco
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posted 05-24-2002 09:55     Click Here to See the Profile for Tabasco     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pat,

Regarding the Mossberg fiasco, how did the 590's pass the 3000 round buckshot test etc., or whatever it was? They claim that the 590 was the only one submitted able to do so, I find it hard to believe that the 870 failed given the great rep it has. Was this similar to the Beretta thing where the guns submitted for testing (and the first run) had much better quality control, which later went to hell?

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Pat _Rogers
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posted 05-24-2002 10:23     Click Here to See the Profile for Pat _Rogers   Click Here to Email Pat _Rogers     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tabasco:
Pat,

Regarding the Mossberg fiasco, how did the 590's pass the 3000 round buckshot test etc., or whatever it was? They claim that the 590 was the only one submitted able to do so, I find it hard to believe that the 870 failed given the great rep it has. Was this similar to the Beretta thing where the guns submitted for testing (and the first run) had much better quality control, which later went to hell?



Beats me. Fortunately shotguns are almost a non starter for the military, so good bad or indifferent they are carried only for certain functions (primarily guard duty) and hardly ever fired- with the exception of breaching guns in the Force Companies (the same could be said for most weapons in the Marine Corps i guess).

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