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Author Topic:   Service Pistol Calibers
DocGKR
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posted 12-13-2003 18:05     Click Here to See the Profile for DocGKR     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This information comparing service pistol calibers was buried in a previous thread; as it is very illuminating, I think it deserves it’s own separate topic. When comparing well designed duty handgun ammunition, there are minimal differences in penetration depths and temporary cavity effects, as noted below in the gel shots by Doug Carr:

As you increase bullet size and mass from 9 mm/357 Sig, to .40 S&W, to .45 ACP, more tissue is crushed, resulting in a larger permanent cavity. In addition, the larger bullets often offer better performance through intermediate barriers. For some, the incremental advantages of the larger calibers are offset by weapon platform characteristics. As is quite obvious from the photo above, NONE of the common service pistol calibers generate temporary cavities of sufficient magnitude to cause significant tissue damage. Anyone interested in this topic should read and periodically re-read, “Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness” by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU, as this remains the single best discussion of the wound ballistic requirements of handguns used for self-defense -- it is available at: http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm .

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

--------------------------------------------------

The following loads have all demonstrated outstanding terminal performance:

9 mm:
Barnes 105 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Fed 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Win 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Win 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Fed 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Rem 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer 147 gr JHP (53619)
Win 147 gr JHP (RA9T)

.40 S&W:
Speer 155 gr JHP (53961)
Fed 165 gr JHP (LE40T3)
Win 165 gr JHP (RA40TA)
Win 165 gr JHP (RA401P)
Fed 180 gr JHP (LE40T1)
Rem 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Speer 180 gr JHP (53966)
Win 180 gr JHP (RA40T)

.45 ACP:
Barnes/Taurus 185 gr JHP
Federal 230 gr Tactical (LE45T1)
Speer 230 gr Gold Dot (23966).
Winchester 230 gr Ranger Talon (RA45T)
Winchester 230 gr +P Ranger Talon (RA45TP)

Notes:
-- While the .45 ACP Barnes/Taures all copper 185 gr JHP is just slightly deficient in penetration, I would not hesitate to use this load when a lower penetration projectile is desired--it is more versatile in different potential engagement scenarios and far superior compared to Triton Quickshok, Aguila IQ, Magsafe, Glaser, etc...

-- Although the Winchester service pistol loads (RA91P & RA401P) using the Nosler Partition Gold bullets are rumored to be discontinued, this Alan Corzine bullet design is too good not to be in production and I suspect another manufacturer will be savvy enough to start using them.

-- Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, etc…)

----------------------------------------

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

[This message has been edited by DocGKR (edited 12-29-2003).]

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Partywaggin
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posted 12-13-2003 18:19     Click Here to See the Profile for Partywaggin   Click Here to Email Partywaggin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll go ahead and say up front, that with modern JHP, I'm a true believer in the 357SIG, for as much belief as one can put in a handgun round. However, based on the photo from Doc's initial messgae, I'm a bit surprised that it compares more to the 45 than to the 9mm or 40. Just an observation based on his photo.

Doc, just so I'm sure, it looks like, in the expanded projectile photo, that the 357SIG is a Gold Dot and the rest are the Ranger's. Is this difference to due to simply what was on hand, or due more so to what is perceived to be the best example of each round? Thanks.

Wes

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_____________________
Hits count, but misses count even more.

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CaesarI
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posted 12-13-2003 21:26     Click Here to See the Profile for CaesarI   Click Here to Email CaesarI     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very valuable thread, anyway we could float it, and lock it?

I noticed the 147gr 9mm, 180gr .40 and 230gr .45 produced very similar results. I did not see much difference between the 124 9mm and the 125 .357, marginally better penetration, and marginally larger temporary cavity.

-Morgan

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DocGKR
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posted 12-13-2003 23:46     Click Here to See the Profile for DocGKR     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The bullets used in the picture of the bare gelatin shots were all Federal HST's. BTW, the picture would look exactly the same if Federal Tactical, Speer Gold Dot, or Winchester Ranger Talon were used instead...

The photos illustrating the recovered bullets depict Gold Dot in 357 Sig and Ranger Talons for the other calibers--they represent optimum performance in each caliber.

"Partywaggin", you might consider re-assessing your comment that the 357 Sig compares to the .45 ACP--the 357 Sig has nearly identical expansion and permanent crush cavity compared with the 9 mm, not .45 ACP. The only area where the 357 Sig is similar to .45 ACP is with the temporary cavity, however, since the stretch effects are relatively minor with all of these service calibers and cause no significant injury, the similarity is moot. Please review the following previous discussions of 357 Sig:

http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000432.html

http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000217.html

http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000368.html

-------------------------------------------

Everyone is welcome to their opinions, but please do not voice them here without accurate, verifiable FACTS to support them--consider this the only warning...

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Livo
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posted 12-13-2003 23:47     Click Here to See the Profile for Livo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very dumb question: what's the black stuff in the temporary and permanent cavities in some of the rounds?

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Josey Wales
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posted 12-14-2003 00:24     Click Here to See the Profile for Josey Wales     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DocGKR,


"The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance."


Now that is some damn valuable advice!

Happy holidays,

Josey

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Josey Wales
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posted 12-14-2003 00:32     Click Here to See the Profile for Josey Wales     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DocGKR,

Reference the .40 S&W from a P-229, if most other factors were reasonably consistent, what bullet weight would you prefer? I had been using 180 grain GS, but I am giving serious consideration to going with 165 grain rounds. Finally, I certainly wouldn't lose sleep over hanging tight with 180 grain GS.


Happy holidays,

Josey Wales

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SOCFK
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posted 12-14-2003 03:11     Click Here to See the Profile for SOCFK   Click Here to Email SOCFK     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
doc- i use W-W ranger 125's in my 357SIG's, is that ok or should i try some speer?? it works fine and is plenty accurate otherwise

thanks

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Partywaggin
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posted 12-14-2003 13:37     Click Here to See the Profile for Partywaggin   Click Here to Email Partywaggin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DocGKR:
"Partywaggin", you might consider re-assessing your comment that the 357 Sig compares to the .45 ACP--the 357 Sig has nearly identical expansion and permanent crush cavity compared with the 9 mm, not .45 ACP. The only area where the 357 Sig is similar to .45 ACP is with the temporary cavity, however, since the stretch effects are relatively minor with all of these service calibers and cause no significant injury, the similarity is moot. Please review the following previous discussions of 357 Sig:

Doc,

Thank you. I looked over a good portion of the info you provided. I think I have seen much of it on other forums, as well as the similar "Ford vs. Chevy" discussions.

For me, personally, I think it is somewhat of a mindset issue. For whatever reasons, I simply shoot better and have more confidence with 357SIG. Long range or short, inclement conditions, or whatever. I do better with a 357SIG, preferably coming form a P226 with P229 a close second. (Not to go off on a tangent, but the other popular weapons sytems chambered in 357SIG simply don't fit me and I don't have confidence in their engineering, I'm not trying to be SIG corporate zombie or anything.)

With all things being pretty much equal (amongst the top defensive pistol catridges), I'll take the confidence boost and better mindset any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Wes

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_____________________
Hits count, but misses count even more.

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DocGKR
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posted 12-14-2003 15:09     Click Here to See the Profile for DocGKR     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Partywaggin/Wes--shooting better and having confidence in your weapon system are GREAT reasons to go with your choice. As I mentioned, all of the common service pistol calibers have loads that work, pick something that is reliable and works well for you, then practice......................a lot.

Livo, the wound tracks were dyed in them to make them easier to see.

JW, the 165 gr GS didn't work as well as the 180 gr, esp through denim.

SOCFK, the 125 gr Speer Gold Dot and 125 gr Federal Tactical are the best 357 Sig loads we have tested, followed by the 125 gr Federal HST . The Win 125 gr Ranger Talon has suffered from some inconsistent performance in our testing--sometimes exhibiting over-expansion and underpenetration in bare gel, but adequate performance against denim.

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Josey Wales
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posted 12-14-2003 20:13     Click Here to See the Profile for Josey Wales     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DocGKR,

Thanks for the info. I think I'm gonna stand pat with the 180 GS load. I used to carry 'em 10-8, never feeling the least bit compromised. If I recall correctly , this load did well in FBI testing.


Happy holidays

Josey wales

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bernieb90
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posted 12-15-2003 10:48     Click Here to See the Profile for bernieb90   Click Here to Email bernieb90     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Doc,
This really illustrates how little difference there is in the performance of the different calibers given good bullet design. I did have another question, I have always read about crush cavity as being equal in diameter to the expanded bullet, however when looking at gelatin tests I usually see what to me looks like permanent cavities that are far smaller than the bullet that created them. Has this been your experience? Also does the final shape of the expanded bullet (flatter vs. classic round mushroom) seem to play any role in how big the permanent cavity is.

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Dr.T
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posted 12-16-2003 16:40     Click Here to See the Profile for Dr.T   Click Here to Email Dr.T     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bullets change shape, yaw and/or fragment as they penetrate. Therefore, it's difficult to precisely measure or even estimate temporary cavity. I wouldn't be surpised that when an international standard for gelatin tests is developed, permanent cavity measurement/estimation will not be included. On the other hand, at handgun velocities, temporary cavity probably does not do a lot of tissue damage, unless inelastic organs like the liver, brain and kidneys are hit, or unless a lucky shot hits an aorta or a ventricle when it is filled with blood. Other proposed effects of temporary cavities on the neurological systems and on blood pressure regulation haven't been demonstrated. That doesn't mean they might not exist, they just haven't been demonstrated and therefore can't be relied on. If they exist they also may be mediated by drugs and state of sympathetic arousal. The same goes for psychological impacts.

So...how should one look at the gelatin photos at the beginning of this thread?? My personal approach with autopistols and most revolvers is to look for bonded bullets of at least .35 caliber that expand reliably, have at least 350 ft. pds. of energy, are controllable in the gun they're fired, and penetrate at least 10 inches in bare gelatin and, better yet 12-14". I also give some, but not a lot of credence to temporary cavity with handguns, as an inelastic organ may be hit. Therefore, I tend to agree most with the DHS/ICE (formerly Immigration)protocol for evaluating ammunition, although I don't look at it or any other protocol as the last word.

With respect to choosing the .357 Sig...Yeah, the gelatin photo looks as if the round would be pretty effective, and so far anecdotal information from the street seems to indicate it works pretty well. From what I see in the gelatin photos above, I'd say the .357 Sig is likely to be somewhat more effective than either 9mm, as I believe temporary cavity counts a little at high (for a pistol) velocities, if the right tissues are hit. However, my Glock 19 holds 16 shots and has less recoil. It can deliver a lot of lead in a short time, and the 9mm. is not as hard on guns as the .357 SIG or larger calibers.

So...it's up to the individual shooter. You have to find the level of recoil and "firepower" that suits you, and train accordingly.

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DrJSW
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posted 12-18-2003 22:07     Click Here to See the Profile for DrJSW     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DocGKR:

Thanks for posting this material. These gelatin samples amply demonstrate the impact equivalence of modern handgun ammunition.

I appreciate anyone going to the trouble of showing that, with modern jacket-controlled JHP design, caliber is far less of a consideration than it might have been in the past. For those who cling hopefully to subtle nuances of handgun bullet performance to justify their caliber choice, this is a long-overdue wakeup call. Not that the info is overdue, it's been there for those who care to look for it. But there are many who might have overslept.<g>

Let him hear that hath an ear.

As an aside: I have been away in the West for the past couple of weeks, which has reminded me (happily, I might add!) that there are places where one can see much farther than one can shoot, even with state-of-the-art optics and barrels.

Which brings to mind a long-suppressed thought: what would the folks here on the TEF think if someone would post parallel gelatin samples from, say, a 180 gr .308 Win bullet beside a 180 gr .45 ACP? Let's think about standard velocities for each, as well as the usual expected impact ranges. As a longstanding rifle aficionado, I'm sure you know what I'm driving at.

Merry Christmas, DocGKR. I must say that I have been truly stimulated by the information I have garnered in this forum since I first logged in some time ago. I sincerely hope you and your family (both nuclear and extended) have a blessed Holiday.

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jarcher
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posted 12-20-2003 13:10     Click Here to See the Profile for jarcher   Click Here to Email jarcher     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry is this should be obvious, but I am not sure how to interpret that picture.

Can someone explain how, when we look at that picture, we can tell the difference between where the permanent wound cavity ends and the temporary cavity begins? Is the permanent wound cavity essentially the black line made by the bullet?

Does the fact that the dye is darker in some spots have meaning?

Thanks!

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AR15Fan
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posted 12-20-2003 18:04     Click Here to See the Profile for AR15Fan   Click Here to Email AR15Fan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Does rate of expansion contribute to wounding? What I mean is does a 45 caliber bullet that expands to .69 almost immediately, and penetrates 12 inches, wound more than a .45 caliber bullet that expands gradually, reaching full expansion near the end of the wound path? Is there any way to measure rate of expansion? Recovered diameter only tells us what the bullet diameter was at the end of the wound track, not how big it was as it travelled through the body.

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DBK
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posted 12-20-2003 18:43     Click Here to See the Profile for DBK     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow! So that one really is the best!!

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Einstein
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posted 12-21-2003 10:48     Click Here to See the Profile for Einstein     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Doc,
Very good pics!

Although I wonder, does the color difference in reds for the temp cavity mean anything? As in for some of the rounds it's darker in the 165 grain than in others? 165 it's a darker color.

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Hard Ball
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posted 12-23-2003 10:59     Click Here to See the Profile for Hard Ball     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An excellent post DocGKR and

"Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios."

Some dammned good advice!

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hi-v
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posted 12-24-2003 06:59     Click Here to See the Profile for hi-v     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
check out the 2300 fps, 80 gr RBCD "tactical" .45 ACP load. While I dont believe that the factory really does sell such ammo to the general public, I am pretty sure that the .45 Super case, in a fully supported 5" barrel, could attain such velocity. :-) Such speeds and energies blow the old claims about handguns lacking real power right out of the window.

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VLITT
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posted 12-25-2003 13:29     Click Here to See the Profile for VLITT   Click Here to Email VLITT     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I asked this question once before but never got an answer. What is the maximum range that service pistol calibers retain good terminal performance? I think this may be a broad question where the answer will depend on caliber, weapon, etc. Just looking for a ball park figure.

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arl5
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posted 12-26-2003 08:16     Click Here to See the Profile for arl5   Click Here to Email arl5     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hi-v:
check out the 2300 fps, 80 gr RBCD "tactical" .45 ACP load.

I think you need to do a search on RBCD before posting something like that here.

[This message has been edited by arl5 (edited 12-26-2003).]

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tan/grn
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posted 12-27-2003 20:56     Click Here to See the Profile for tan/grn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Doc, this concerns the advice you gave JW on the 165gr vs the 180gr. Some police dept. armorers/rangemasters on another website have stated they have noticed problems with the 180gr in a 40cal semi because a lot of them are based on 9mm frames. Evidently, over a period of time the 180gr, due to its power, has caused some parts breakage or metal fatigue. Do you have any knowledge/experience or advice in that area? Thank you.

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DocGKR
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posted 12-28-2003 00:58     Click Here to See the Profile for DocGKR     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
bernieb90: flat front with sharp 90 degree edges is the best shape, more rounded and blunted edges are not as efficient at cutting tissue.

jarcher & Einstein: The color differences with the dye has no meaning. I personally don’t like to dye gelatin because it overemphasizes the temporary cavity. The permanent cavity is the primary bullet track where the tissue is crushed by direct contact with the bullet, while the temporary cavity is the area of stretch spreading radially away from the bullet track.

AR15Fan: Unfortunately, there is a significant amount of misinformation on rate of expansion; a simple test is to shoot through a thin 2 or 3 inch thick piece of gelatin and then capture the bullets in a recovery box that prevents further bullet deformation. The vast majority of well designed handgun service caliber JHP’s will be fully expanded by the first couple of inches of travel.

VLITT: As a rough estimate figure around 100 yard, although this is highly variable dependent on caliber, bullet design, and weapon.

Tan/grn: The CHP, as well as most California LE agencies have been issuing 180 gr JHP’s for nearly 15 years now—no problems with properly designed pistols. I think the major issues have been with manufacturers who just shoved a .40 S&W barrel into a 9 mm frame without adequately re-engineering the pistol, like with the Glock 22/23. Take a look at how much more robustly constructed a S&W 4006 or a .40 S&W Hi-Power is compared to their 9 mm cousins; BTW, if Gaston rechambered the Glock 37 in .40 S&W, it would likely make a much more robust and durable .40 S&W pistol than the 22/23… In any event, there are plenty of good performing 165 gr JHP’s if that bullet weight makes someone feel better.

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tan/grn
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posted 12-28-2003 01:11     Click Here to See the Profile for tan/grn     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
DocGKR, thank you for the fast response. I appreciate the info. I might have mentioned I'm trying to decide between the Springfield XD subcompact 9mm and the XD subcompact 40 due in Jan. for concealable use. Their 40 is not based on the 9mm frame from what I have been told. Thank you again. That was my first post on this site.

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