posted 12-15-2003 03:07               

I hope you can help me with this issue.

I'm searching for woundballistic performance data of our local duty-ammunition, the GECO Action3, which is also known as the GECO BAT (blitz action trauma).

Untill now I've dug up very little info on this round online. Normal ballistics van be found but woundballistic data not.

Does any of you gentlemen have any data on this load? Would be greatly appreciated.

posted 12-15-2003 20:33            

Email me if you would like a copy of the article.

vfortytwoATyahoo.com

posted 12-16-2003 03:43               

Thanks for the information. This round is already in use for more than 15 years here locally (Holland) and the trackrecord is not too bad. It functions reliable in the P5 used here, but is also quite hard on the weapons.

I was hoping to find some more data along the lines of the US-testprotocol. I knew the chance would be slim. I want(ed) to use the info in a discussion we're having about this round. Some folks want the round replaced by a, what they call "real stopper" (aka magic bullet). I'm trying to tell them that that doesn't exist and that (I think) shotplacement is much more important. This discussion arises every time a suspect is shot (in the leg or any other non directly vital area of the body) and not directly stopped....

Greetings from Amsterdam and thanks again,
Bollocks

[This message has been edited by Bollocks (edited 12-16-2003).]

posted 12-16-2003 04:48               

It does these things well. It is not an optimum design for anti-personel use.
http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Fangschuss.html

posted 12-18-2003 01:28            

Velocity was 1575 f/s, pen ranged from 28.8 cm to 35.5 cm with a max TC diam of 7 to 8 cm at depths of 7 to 8 cm. The recovered diameters ranged from 12 to 13 mm.

As a comparison, below is data from some other loads fired into the same block of gel: Federal 9BP 115 gr JHP at a velocity of 1142 f/s, pen of 26 cm, max TC diam of 7.5 cm at 10-11 cm and RD of 15 mm; Win 158 gr .38 SP +P LSWCHP out of a 2" J-frame penetrated 35.7 cm, max TC diam of 5.5 cm at 7 cm and RD of 13 mm.

In other words, the BAT terminal performance is nothing special and is fully eclipsed by most modern 9 mm JHP designs such as the Winchester Ranger Talon, Speer Gold Dot, and Federal Tactical.

posted 12-19-2003 01:23               

Thanks for the information! I know that there are better choices than the BAT but we don't have others options. It's the designated round of the dutch police.

The reason I'm after specific information is to 'proove' to others that it's not such a bad round as they claim (comparable with 9mmP FMJ performance). You know, what I really want is that they would have more confidence in what they carry and focus on shotplacement instead of spreading unrest.

Merry X-mas and a Happy 2004 to all

Cheers from Amsterdam,
Bollocks

[This message has been edited by Bollocks (edited 12-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Bollocks (edited 12-19-2003).]

posted 12-21-2003 05:53            

your Action 3 isn´t the same as Geco BAT. The Geco BAT - realname DNAG Action 1 - is a deformation bullet while the action 3 is a non deformation bullet that does not change its style while entering human tissue.
Action 1 is made of brass (alloy with zinc and copper) but with a higher percentage of copper so the alloy is softer.

Action 3 has a lower percentag of copper, so the alloy is harder and the bullet won´t deform when penetration soft tissue.

In 20 % gelatine at 15 °C the Action 1´s deformation is about 13-15 mm while penetration is approx. 20 cm (these are about 25 cm in 10 % gelatine).

In 20 % gel. at 15 °C your Action 3´s penetration is approx. at 40 cm, these are estimated 50 cm in 10 % gel. No deformation. Looks like not fired but without this green plastic tip.

Action 1 and 3 were the police duty ammo for our special weapons and tactic teams for many years. The only problem concerning the weapons they had was the chamber pressure that was too high so the guns showed increased wear after a while.
Wound ballistics of Action 1 and 3 is not very impressive. Action 1 is good expansion but bad penetration, Action 3 shows deep penetration but bad deformation.
Up to 2001 the standard police in Germany had to use fmj because politicians didn´t allow the use of premium hollow point ammunition. After a tragic incident they introduced deformation projectiles made complete of brass alloy.

So nowadays we shoot either the
- QD P.E.P. with 90 grs. (QD means Quick defense, P.E.P means Polizei-Einsatz-Patrone = police duty round) or the
- Action 4 with 94 grs.
Both cartridges penetrate between 25 and 30 cm in 20 % ge. at 15 °C (between 30 and 38 cm in 10 % gel. at 4 °C) and expand to 12 mm with a round and smooth shape at the front in order to the politician´s and our highest chief´s wish not to hurt the aggressor too much. No comment.
They were looking for a compromise between enough incapacitation and penetration ability on hard barriers (at least 4 steel panels) and car tyre punction.

For more information about MEN: http://www.elisenhuette.de/uk/home/fr_home1.html

For more information about DNAG (Geco): http://www.globalarms.net/topics/action4.htm

Big picture: http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/ammunition/ruag/ruag2.html

posted 12-25-2003 23:02               

Very usefull information!

Thanks again,
Bollocks

posted 01-09-2004 03:33            

Action 1 (in my country known as Geco BAT - Blitz Action Trauma (btw: "Blitz" means lightning) is an all brass deformation bullet (see my upper writing) with a tiny central drill hole through the complete bullet from buttom to top.
Due to reliable feeding, DAG made a plastic tip that imitates a fmj shape. This tip has to be removed after firing in order to provide tissue flow inside the cavity and deformation.
Therefore the drill hole was manufactured. The gas pressure blows through the drill hole and "ejects" this plastic tip out of the bullet already in the barrel. The cap then brakes in two (if I remember correctly) fragments.

Action 2 was a prototype. It expanded exactly to 9 mm in soft tissue. Same manufacturing process as Action 1 but never left the lab.

Action 3 is a non-expanding hollow point with less copper. Same manufacturing process as Action 1.

Action 4 is one of our current duty ammunition. I doesn´t have a drill hole. DAG just copied the more than 20 years old MEN Quick Defense bullet design (as do CorBon with their "new" Pow`R Ball bullet.

The plastic tip will travel into the hollow point cavity on impact and expose the cavity. Action 4 will penetrate about 30 and 38 cm and expand to approx. 12 mm with a round and smooth shape.

Action 5 is produced in the same way as Action 4 but with more cupper in the brass. So it will expand more (about 15 mm) and penetrate less (about 25 cm).

There exist furthermore the MEN (Metallwerk Elisenhütte in Nassau) Quick Defense rounds:

QD 1, QD 2 and QD PEP (Polizei-Einsatz-Patrone = Police service round)

QD1 expands to approx. 15 mm, penetrates to about 20 cm
QD 2 expands to 9 mm, penetrates to 50 cm
QD PEP shows the same performance as DAG Action 4 as it is the other competitor for German police service round.

All brass bullets shows very good penetration capabilities on hard barriers which was a major demand for our current police service bullet selection.

Look for the above mentioned links.

Unfortunately I did not find anything else about Action 1, 2, 3 in the www.

SIG-Sauer 226 (all stainless steel with -1- 15 SIG-Sauer and -2- 17 round MecGar magazines filled with Speer Gold Dot 124 +P for home defense) 9x19 rules

Hope you can understand my english,

posted 01-11-2004 05:26               

Danke fur die Info, Sie sind ein von den wenigen der gute Data vefugbar hat uber die Action-Patronen!

Tscheuss und prosit aus Amsterdam,
Bollocks

posted 01-11-2004 06:47               

In Germany each state buys their own stuff, sometimes with astonishing results. An interior minister of Nordrhein-Westfalen once ordered 9mm ammo with lower velocities since he heard of overpenetration of FMJ. Surprisingly the guns started malfunctioning And his cops were not very happy with the thought of now being able to shoot more 'humanely'.

Here in Berlin until lately the cops carried 9mm FMJ while 'special expanding' ammo (MEN, with a red paltic cap) was only to be used for Pitbulls (Kampfhunde). If at all, the other way around would make sense.

posted 01-13-2004 11:37            

Dein Deutsch ist richtig klasse, ich wäre froh, wenn ich genauso gut Deine holländische Mutterspräche sprechen könnte. Aber immerhin war ich letzes Jahr für 5 Tage bei Euch an der Nordseeküste in Urlaub und habe es mit mit meiner Freundin und deren Eltern gut gehen lassen.

Pass während der Arbeit auf Dich auf!

And now I continue in English:

This minister for inner affairs was Burkhard Hirsch. He is the same man who refused/rejected and still refuses/rejects the use of deformation bullet as "killer bullets". He irrationally claims HP´s make fist like holes and no one should use this murder slugs.

In Germany a long time only it was only allowed for SWAT Teams and our Secret Service to carry deformation bullets. For standard cops it was forbidden. Very nice: To protect the politicians´s lifes it was ok but the same politicians banned the use of hollow points for the standard service.

For Your information: Berlin switched some weeks ago to RUAG (former DAG and even more former Geco) Action 4.

I am employed in Hessen and work there as a trainer for tactics, shooting and law.

In a gunfight there is no second place winner